Car carry question...

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Car carry question...

Post by Kadnine » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:00 pm

...

I'd like to put a small handgun in with my other car emergency supplies, but I want it to be both KY legal and secure. I was thinking about a bolted down lock box in the trunk, or some sort of lockable cable netting to secure a whole bug-out-bag. Any one have experience with either of these options?

I know KY law states it's legal to keep firearms in any *factory installed* compartment, but none of my cubby holes came with factory locks. And I'd feel more secure leaving the car parked with dual locks in place (Trunk lid plus lock box, trunk lid plus steel cargo net, or even car doors, plus under-seat safe.)

Do any of these violate KY law, that you know of? I have my CCDW, but not everybody who drives my car does.

Thanks.

- Keith
~~~

"'...what it is to be a bondservant thou knowest full well, but of freedom thou hast never yet made trial, to know whether it be a sweet thing or not. For if ever thou hadst experience thereof, thou wouldest counsel us to fight for it not with spears only but with axes.' Thus the Spartans answered Hydarnes." - Herodotus

~~~

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by Rem700 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:07 pm

Someone correct me if im wrong, but since you have a CCDW you can store it anywhere in the car legaly (factory storage or otherwise).

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ssracer » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:15 pm

Correct. With CCDW location doesn't matter, but if you are talking about leaving it in the car and there is the potential for an unlicensed person to be driving it (wife, etc) then it should be considered.

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by Whootsinator » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:18 pm

I believe the trunk counts as a factory installed compartment. Putting a firearm in a lockbox and then into the trunk shouldn't violate anything.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ken6881 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:55 pm

Whootsinator wrote:I believe the trunk counts as a factory installed compartment. Putting a firearm in a lockbox and then into the trunk shouldn't violate anything.
I agree but if you have ccdw then it should not be an issue ether way.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ChopperDoc » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:18 pm

Many States, Indiana included, are going to require you to keep ammo (full mags and cartridges) in a separate container than the firearm UNLESS you have a CCDW that they honor. So if others will drive the car besides you, keep it unloaded and ammo separate.

The post about the trunk for Kentucky is correct. In KY it would be legal for it to be loaded. If you cross the river, it won't be.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by Kadnine » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:39 pm

All of these responses jive with my own understanding, and thanks.

Does anyone know if a) *bolting* a lock box to the trunk floor or b) cabling a pack down to the trunk floor or c) cabling a lock box under the passenger seat, violates the "factory installed" provision of KY law? Both the primary CCDW driver (me) and another (non-CCDW) will be driving on occasion.

I come from a Mil Sec background, and would really like to double lock the piece while parked in KY, but not if it violates the "factory" provision for the secondary (non-CCDW) driver.

Two scenarios ---

1) CCDW driver is out and about carrying, enters a no carry zone and must leave it in the car for several hours or overnight. I want double locks. My understanding is that by installing my own second lock I'm pretty well covered, legally.

2) Non-CCDW driver is out and about, and gets pulled over, discloses the weapon's presence, double locked, will she get static for "altering the factory installed compartments" that she is normally allowed to keep the weapon in?

Think I'll put a call in to the Sheriff about this.

- K
~~~

"'...what it is to be a bondservant thou knowest full well, but of freedom thou hast never yet made trial, to know whether it be a sweet thing or not. For if ever thou hadst experience thereof, thou wouldest counsel us to fight for it not with spears only but with axes.' Thus the Spartans answered Hydarnes." - Herodotus

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by Kadnine » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:43 pm

* disambiguation*

Scenario 1) CCDW with loaded weapon

Scenario 2) Non-CCDW with unloaded weapon, stored separately from ammo

- K
~~~

"'...what it is to be a bondservant thou knowest full well, but of freedom thou hast never yet made trial, to know whether it be a sweet thing or not. For if ever thou hadst experience thereof, thou wouldest counsel us to fight for it not with spears only but with axes.' Thus the Spartans answered Hydarnes." - Herodotus

~~~

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ken6881 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:59 pm

sherifs office is always a good idea but you never know how a lexington or louisville cop will react.
Maybe you get the non ccdw holder to become one.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ChopperDoc » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:58 am

Kadnine wrote:* disambiguation*

Scenario 1) CCDW with loaded weapon

Scenario 2) Non-CCDW with unloaded weapon, stored separately from ammo

- K

if you put a 'non-factory' box in the driver area and keep a loaded weapon in it Scenario 2 is going to be breaking the law even here in Kentucky. In Scenario 1 would be fine. Under Kentucky law a loaded firearm in any factory compartment, even if it will not lock, is not considered to be 'concealed'. So the map pouch behind the driver / passenger seat would suffice, even for an unlicensed person.

Depending on State law, and reciprocity, both could be illegal in another State but not specifically because of the aftermarket installed box.

If you install a lock box in the trunk (which is not in the passenger area and not 'readily' accessible by the occupants then you would be covered regardless of who drives the vehicle. You would just need to store the ammo separate from the gun to be covered regardless of the State you travel in (some exceptions, see below).

I have a gun in my GHB that is always in the vehicle. The magazines are loaded but stored separately from the firearm in the bag. Under MOST State laws this is sufficient, even though the firearm is not in a locked container and even though, in my truck it is not stored outside the passenger compartment. The wife has no carry permit so she would be okay in Tennessee, Indiana, or even Ohio now (recently changed law) if she were to drive to those places with my GHB in the trunk of her car. installing a lockable storage box is taking that one step further than the law requires in those States for an unlicensed person.

As far as magazines go, you have to read the State's definition of a 'loaded firearm' to see if you are legal (as an unlicensed individual) to have loaded magazines. Ohio law was recently changed but used to consider a loaded mag, even if stored separate from the firearm, the same as having a loaded firearm in the vehicle.

In a State like Illinois who honors no CCDW permit and has very strict rules about vehicle carry of any weapon (FOID card required) you can, under Federal Law, transport a weapon THROUGH the State if you are not planning on the destination of your trip being in that State. I would never expect your 'regular Joe LEO' to have the first clue about this, but even if you stay at a 'temporary lodging overnight' on your way to your final destination you are still covered under the Federal Law. Plenty of info on that with a simple Google search (Interstate transportation of firearms).
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by Kadnine » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:03 pm

Thanks, Doc. That helps a lot. (And I read yer heads up on the Ohio rule change. Appreciate it.) A lot of these questions would disappear if only car manufacturers took gun owners into consideration at the design phase, but I'm not holding my breath. I understand that *they* understand that *we* understand we'll hop thru the ever moving legal goalposts using after market locking devices, thereby absolving *them* of any future liability. ;)

So, there's no upside to selling compliant factory spec cars to carrying folk, and everything about the current political landscape screams, "Why take on THAT headache, when gun owners are so... willing to take responsibility?" It's hella messed up we live in a society where owners are on their own should they be shot to death in their vehicle, but carmakers factor crash liability into the cost of the car for everybody. Last I checked, the 2nd was still enshrined right, crashing your horse into another horse was yer own problem!

- K
~~~

"'...what it is to be a bondservant thou knowest full well, but of freedom thou hast never yet made trial, to know whether it be a sweet thing or not. For if ever thou hadst experience thereof, thou wouldest counsel us to fight for it not with spears only but with axes.' Thus the Spartans answered Hydarnes." - Herodotus

~~~

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by Kadnine » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:18 pm

Talked with KY State Police, and....

... we're pretty much in limbo till a court case comes along down the pike to interpret some rather vague wording. I'm gonna err on the side of caution and use a lock box in the trunk (gives me a double-key sense of security when leaving the car unattended) and unload when the wife drives without me. That's in KY. And we'll take traveling out of state on a case by case basis.

Thanks, guys.

- K
~~~

"'...what it is to be a bondservant thou knowest full well, but of freedom thou hast never yet made trial, to know whether it be a sweet thing or not. For if ever thou hadst experience thereof, thou wouldest counsel us to fight for it not with spears only but with axes.' Thus the Spartans answered Hydarnes." - Herodotus

~~~

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ChopperDoc » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:22 pm

Kadnine wrote:Talked with KY State Police, and....

... we're pretty much in limbo till a court case comes along down the pike to interpret some rather vague wording. I'm gonna err on the side of caution and use a lock box in the trunk (gives me a double-key sense of security when leaving the car unattended) and unload when the wife drives without me. That's in KY. And we'll take traveling out of state on a case by case basis.

Thanks, guys.

- K

You can speak with 10 different officers from the same department/agency and get 10 different answers, so i would never suggest asking a local police officer. Not because they are dumb or anything, it is just that they are required to know the entire KRS, along with all the AG opinion's and court precedent's set while they are on patrol. They get a class annually for about an hour or so on changes and updates.

None of them will be experts on the KRS, even the gun ones, unless they are doing the research on their own. I would venture to guess about 2% of them might.

I don't find the new KRS ambiguous at all, but I am no lawyer.

KRS 527.020

(8)

A loaded or unloaded firearm or other deadly weapon shall not be deemed concealed on or about the person if it is located in any enclosed container, compartment, or storage space installed as original equipment in a motor vehicle by its manufacturer, including but not limited to a glove compartment, center console, or seat pocket, regardless of whether said enclosed container, storage space, or compartment is locked, unlocked, or does not have a locking mechanism. No person or organization, public or private, shall prohibit a person from keeping a loaded or unloaded firearm or ammunition, or both, or other deadly weapon in a vehicle in accordance with the provisions of this subsection. Any attempt by a person or organization, public or private, to violate the provisions of this subsection may be the subject of an action for appropriate relief or for damages in a Circuit Court or District Court of competent jurisdiction. This subsection shall not apply to any person prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to KRS 527.040.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by Kadnine » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:20 am

Well, I talked with a Trooper named Shane who was very knowledgeable, and who immediately pointed out that from a LEO POV, "including but not limited to" is not ideal language from a law enforcement standpoint. *He's* waiting on a court case or a change in language. Should have made that clearer.

*I* however, am not willing to volunteer the wife for a 2A test case she has no real interest in fighting. She has other fish to fry. Yet another example of the b*stards chipping away at our rights, by way of inconveniencing us to death. But Shane seemed sympathetic, and had obviously done his research. He knew what I was asking him about in our brief conversation. Was clear he'd had this convo before with other callers.

As always, you're on top of this, Doc. Thanks again.

- K
~~~

"'...what it is to be a bondservant thou knowest full well, but of freedom thou hast never yet made trial, to know whether it be a sweet thing or not. For if ever thou hadst experience thereof, thou wouldest counsel us to fight for it not with spears only but with axes.' Thus the Spartans answered Hydarnes." - Herodotus

~~~

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ChopperDoc » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:10 am

Completely understand your point of view on that. I would not want to be the test case either.

As we touched on earlier in the conversation, something in the trunk is going to cover you in any State as long as you comply with their definition of a loaded firearm and you keep stuff separate as their law requires (for unlicensed individuals).

I read the 'intent' behind the modification to Kentucky law when it was being presented. It used to specifically, and only, list glove box carry. So if you had the gun concealed anywhere else in the passenger area it was in violation if loaded. The intent was to allow ANY compartment, factory installed, so that if you had a glove box too small you were not left out, etc, etc. It was designed so that folks in motor homes could use other, more accessible compartments and such.

Not sure what the office you spoke with wants clarified, but I am sure it can be without even having a 'test case'. He should have his chief write the State Attorney General for an opinion letter addressing his concerns. To a layman like me the language 'any factory compartment' is pretty clear. The 'including but not limited to' is merely adding some examples but is not limited to the listed items as long as it is factory installed by the manufacturer and not by you or a 'pimp my ride' shop.

I would do exactly as you are to cover all drivers of the vehicle and put something in the trunk. If they know they are not going to be leaving Kentucky borders you can load their personal firearm and put it in the map case or glove box for easy access though.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by Kadnine » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:55 pm

Trooper Shane (not sure his rank, older sounding gentleman) mentioned that "reasonable man" legal theory might cover the entire cabin compartment as "factory installed" but from his POV he's waiting on more concrete instructions. And to him that means a law change or a test case. Since I have no idea when the law may change, and have no desire to be a test case, I'm taking the most conservative action: unloaded in trunk it is, for the wife driving alone. Loaded on hip for me.

Whew! Just a few more years of these questions and I just might get the hang of this ever-changing legal landscape.

- K
~~~

"'...what it is to be a bondservant thou knowest full well, but of freedom thou hast never yet made trial, to know whether it be a sweet thing or not. For if ever thou hadst experience thereof, thou wouldest counsel us to fight for it not with spears only but with axes.' Thus the Spartans answered Hydarnes." - Herodotus

~~~

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ChopperDoc » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:29 pm

Kadnine wrote:Trooper Shane (not sure his rank, older sounding gentleman) mentioned that "reasonable man" legal theory might cover the entire cabin compartment as "factory installed" but from his POV he's waiting on more concrete instructions. And to him that means a law change or a test case. Since I have no idea when the law may change, and have no desire to be a test case, I'm taking the most conservative action: unloaded in trunk it is, for the wife driving alone. Loaded on hip for me.

Whew! Just a few more years of these questions and I just might get the hang of this ever-changing legal landscape.

- K

Just my opinion, but I think he is WAY over thinking it. Honestly, if the gun is on the seat and in 'plain view' to the officer it is not concealed at all and is perfectly legal under our open carry laws. However, I believe that the ambiguity of 'plain view' when you start talking about looking from the outside in to the vehicle is a lot more subjective than the new changes to the law for unlicensed carry in your vehicle.

"any enclosed container, compartment, or storage space installed as original equipment in a motor vehicle by its manufacturer"

Not sure how that can be unclear as to the idea that the deadly weapon (not just guns) needs to be 'enclosed' in a container, compartment or storage space. Under the seat would not be enclosed unless there was a factory container there, etc, etc. A short letter to the State Attorney General should clear up any questions he has. No court case required for him to 'wait' on.

Like I said, My opinion is that he is over thinking it. Regardless your trunk idea is viable for all States and should be used. Were it me, I would have that compartment and still tell my wife to have her firearm in the glove box or seat pocket within easy reach while traveling around Kentucky for her protection. She does not need a permit for that and the glove box/seat pocket are specifically mentioned in the KRS... hard to argue ambiguity with those at a minimum.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by Kadnine » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:31 pm

Agreed.
~~~

"'...what it is to be a bondservant thou knowest full well, but of freedom thou hast never yet made trial, to know whether it be a sweet thing or not. For if ever thou hadst experience thereof, thou wouldest counsel us to fight for it not with spears only but with axes.' Thus the Spartans answered Hydarnes." - Herodotus

~~~

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Re: Car carry question...

Post by justang1997 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:34 pm

Ok, so lets say a non ccdw holder is driving and pulled over with a loaded gun in a locked box under the seat, breaking the ky rules. Lets say the box is battery key pad with a key backup. Lets say the non ccdw person does not have a key. Lets say the non ccdw person knows the keypad code but does not admit to knowing it. (keeps their mouth shut 5th ammendment sort of thing) I don't know how anything could happen. If they pull you over for speeding they have no right to search anyways and can only search what is in plain sight through the windows.

They could even say no to the question that the officer will ask when stopping a vehicle that is registered to a ccdw holder.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ChopperDoc » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:46 pm

justang1997 wrote:Ok, so lets say a non ccdw holder is driving and pulled over with a loaded gun in a locked box under the seat, breaking the ky rules. Lets say the box is battery key pad with a key backup. Lets say the non ccdw person does not have a key. Lets say the non ccdw person knows the keypad code but does not admit to knowing it. (keeps their mouth shut 5th ammendment sort of thing) I don't know how anything could happen. If they pull you over for speeding they have no right to search anyways and can only search what is in plain sight through the windows.

They could even say no to the question that the officer will ask when stopping a vehicle that is registered to a ccdw holder.

I'd say that in most cases nothing would happen, but do you want to be the guy that finds out by paying a lawyer to represent you?

Under the seat in a non-factory box, even a locked one violates the statute. If convicted you could be facing a Class A misdemeanor.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by justang1997 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:55 pm

Yes, i was just sayin.... Really like you said there is no reason not to just keep it in the console and lock it up if you are running inside somewhere. You could even lock it under the seat as long as you aren't in the vehicle while its locked and move it to the center console while you are driving. If I wasn't ccdw, and forgot the gun was under the seat locked up and were to be pulled over, I sure as hell would't admit to it.
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Re: Car carry question...

Post by ChopperDoc » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:02 pm

justang1997 wrote:Yes, i was just sayin.... Really like you said there is no reason not to just keep it in the console and lock it up if you are running inside somewhere. You could even lock it under the seat as long as you aren't in the vehicle while its locked and move it to the center console while you are driving. If I wasn't ccdw, and forgot the gun was under the seat locked up and were to be pulled over, I sure as hell would't admit to it.

word.

But we live in kind of a Utopia like that in Kentucky. I would hate to keep a gun in a lock box under the seat and my wife decide she was going to run over to Indiana for some shopping and get pulled over. Then she, not thinking about the gun, gives permission to the cop to search the vehicle and now she faces felony charges in Indiana.

Not a situation I am likely to be in with my wife, but just need to pass on some facts about 'what if' scenarios to the peeps. Sometimes people don't factor in variables like that, as is evident with the rash of concealed carry holders traveling to NYC and trying to 'check' their guns with security at tourist buildings and what not.
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