Kentucky Armory Club

What say you guys?

http://bearingarms.com/experts-arent-ke ... n=baupdate

The Heckler & Hock MP5 submachine gun was state-of-the-art when it was introduced… 50 years ago.

That isn’t keeping the Lexington, Kentucky Police Department SWAT team from demanding ten of the museum pieces in a bid for new equipment:

This month, Lexington’s Urban County Government will begin accepting bids so it can buy 10 submachine guns, plus ammunition and other accessories, to replace aging equipment at the city’s police department.

The bids must be submitted to the city by 2 p.m. Oct. 30, according to a request for proposals — typically called an RFP — dated Oct. 16.

The request says that the submachine guns “MUST be a Heckler & Koch MP5A2 and MP5 SD2,” and that no substitutions will be accepted.

Lexington police spokeswoman Sherelle Roberts said the new weapons would replace the weapons carried by the Emergency Response Unit, commonly known as a SWAT team.

“They are too old,” she said. “They need to be replaced.”

The department’s ERU, made up of about 36 officers, answers the call when negotiations are needed. ERU can be called out to myriad situations such as bomb threats, standoffs and NCAA Tournament celebrations.

An MP5A2 is a fixed stock selective-fire closed-bolt submachine gun that fires 9mm bullets.

The MP5 SD2 is a suppressed version of the same gun.

I frankly question the competency of the procurement officers and firearm “experts” with the Lexington PD.

While submachine guns were the hot ticket for specialized military and SWAT/ERT units in the past, they have long been outclassed by compact AR-15 variants in every conceivable way, which is why most military and SWAT units have abandoned SMGs for compact AR-15 or M4 carbines.

When compared against compact AR-15 pattern carbines in .223 Remington/5.56 NATO, the MP5 comes up short in numerous ways:

• 9mm is a pistol-caliber bullet, with much less energy to transfer into target (roughly 400 ft-lbs, depending on ammo used) than the rifle-caliber .223/5.56 (the common 55-grain M193 loading for the .223/5.56 transfers roughly 1,100 ft-lbs of energy). To have the same energy transfer to the target, officers will have to fire more rounds, increasing the risk to everyone downrange.
  9mm ammunition will not effectively penetrate common soft body armor sometimes worn by suspects, such as the armor worn by the robbers in the infamous North Hollywood shootout which saw 9mm bullets bounce off the suspects. In contrast, .223/556 will penetrate soft body armor consistently.
  9mm hollowpoints and FMJ rounds frequently over-penetrate building materials, and pose more of a risk to innocent civilians downrange when compared to the small, lighter, much higher velocity .223/5.56 bullets, which tend to yaw and fragment upon impact with building materials.
  9mm submachine guns have much shorter range than .223/5.56 carbines, limiting the situations in which the firearms can be used.
  MP5 SUGs are not as accurate at any range as are .223/5.56 carbines.

If I were a member of Lexington’s City Council, comptroller, or had any oversight at all into police purchasing I’d immediately quash this RFP and f

Nothing wrong with an MP5. Same could be said for the ancient 1911.

The MP-5 is a adaquet for the job , the problem would be getting them.
Any supplier would charge more for them than M-16/M4
Which are easier to get
Any 07/SOT can machine those out of new lowers, FA parts are avaiable.

MP-5 trigger packs are $$$$$$

Based on cost and availability alone this seems just dumb. But hey it's not there own money they are spending and they get to tell all there buddies that they run and gun with an MP5

The MP5 has niche roles that it would fill best. To fill those roles they might need two... AFTER they outfit the rest of the team with a proper quality AR of their desired flavor. While it may have been the shit at one time, the MP5 is not an adequate general use weapon.

I'd find it hard to believe that they don't already have all the AR rifles they could possibly need. Maybe they want the mp5's for some specific reason.

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Another thing that bugs me about the article is quoting energy numbers. That's all hocus pocus stuff. A gunshot wound kills by poking a hole and causing you to bleed out or damage to an organ. 9mm hp's poke bigger holes to bleed from and poke bigger holes in organs.
Now, velocity numbers are a different story. 556 will have the advantage there as far as that goes.
They say 556 will defeat armor but it won't over penetrate. Well you can't have both. I don't know anyone that carries a mag of penitrators next to a mag of hp's.

If I could only have 1 I'd take the AR but like I said above, I doubt Lex eru doesn't already have AR's.

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I hope they get them.

So when one is stolen from the front seat of an unlocked patrol car on a call out in the middle of e ghetto, I have hot at buying it on the cheap on Armslist!

Mike wrote:I hope they get them.

So when one is stolen from the front seat of an unlocked patrol car on a call out in the middle of e ghetto, I have hot at buying it on the cheap on Armslist!

Lol

It is easier to carry a SD than a M4 with a can , comparing the OAL

Suppressed 9mm produces less gas so igniting a cooking house is less.

Whootsinator wrote:The MP5 has niche roles that it would fill best. To fill those roles they might need two... AFTER they outfit the rest of the team with a proper quality AR of their desired flavor. While it may have been the shit at one time, the MP5 is not an adequate general use weapon.

I beg to differ, though expensive, it is a better weapon to use in hostage situations because 9mm, 40 S&W and 10mm, is more suited for indoors causing less collateral damage vs 5.56/223.
Yea an AR can be outfitted for those calibers as well but then add that cost on to the AR.
If my home was being invaded and I had to choose between my AR's and my MP5 clone, it would be the MP5 all day. Unless you have handled one and shot one, you wont understand.
It still is the shit because our Secret Service still uses them (in 9mm, 40 S&W and 10mm) and so do a lot of other countries.
Cost is high but it is one Hell of a weapon.

guncrank1 wrote:It is easier to carry a SD than a M4 with a can , comparing the OAL

Suppressed 9mm produces less gas so igniting a cooking house is less.

Bingo!

Cant wait till Rext replies!

MP5s? Heck may be cheaper to go P90

The MP5 is an aging system that has a small place in this world. There will always be someone out there that thinks it's the greatest thing ever.. always.

I will never accept XYZ as being the shit because ABC uses it, first and foremost. It's funny you mention that actually. After the recent SS incidents, such as the fence jumper, I've seen many people who are genuinely in the know, on the forefront of security, mocking the Secret Service for still hanging on to and deploying MP5s lacking optics and lights.

But past that, why do you believe 9mm, 40S&W, and 10mm are more suited for indoor use?

Whootsinator wrote:The MP5 is an aging system that has a small place in this world. There will always be someone out there that thinks it's the greatest thing ever.. always.?

1911 - 1911
AR-10/15 series - 1956
MP5- 1964

Just saying

Whootsinator wrote:The MP5 is an aging system that has a small place in this world. There will always be someone out there that thinks it's the greatest thing ever.. always.

I will never accept XYZ as being the shit because ABC uses it, first and foremost. It's funny you mention that actually. After the recent SS incidents, such as the fence jumper, I've seen many people who are genuinely in the know, on the forefront of security, mocking the Secret Service for still hanging on to and deploying MP5s lacking optics and lights.

But past that, why do you believe 9mm, 40S&W, and 10mm are more suited for indoor use?

If I had an AR to fight bad guys in my house I would be afraid of over penetration and a chance of my kids, neighbors being hit by a stray or ricochette from the 223/5.56. You and I both know that SWAT isn't going to put frangible bullets in their guns.
Not only in my home but inside of a mall, school, strip joint etc.
I literally cut down a tree on my place with 5.56 rounds after they penetrated the targets I was shooting at.
IMHO, its safer for smaller calibers for SWAT because 99.9% of their calls are for indoor occurances.

I was shooting through an old door before the pictured targets were posted.




9mm hollowpoints and FMJ rounds frequently over-penetrate building materials, and pose more of a risk to innocent civilians downrange when compared to the small, lighter, much higher velocity .223/5.56 bullets, which tend to yaw and fragment upon impact with building materials.


This picture is where I have to disagree.

WLJ,

I should have worded that better. I fully realize both the AR-15 and MP5 were first designed a long time ago. The difference is that the AR-15 platform has continued to adapt very heavily, and rather elegantly, to this day. The adaptation of the MP5 has fallen way behind, being limited mostly to fairly awkward additions, not full-on revisions.

I have an AR in 9mm....just sayin

Whootsinator wrote:WLJ,

I should have worded that better. I fully realize both the AR-15 and MP5 were first designed a long time ago. The difference is that the AR-15 platform has continued to adapt very heavily, and rather elegantly, to this day. The adaptation of the MP5 has fallen way behind, being limited mostly to fairly awkward additions, not full-on revisions.

No argument from me, It was just in an off hand way showing that age isn't the issue, I agree, other firearms have passed them up. While I would love an MP5 it is heavy for what it is and would not be my first choice for things that go bump in the night. BTW: Always thought of the P90 as being a modernize MP5 being smaller and lighter and they do fill the same niche.

The question I have to ask, after reading the OP, is what difference does it make if the "old" ones they want to replace are old? If they have been cared for properly, they should continue to function without much grief. Have they been used so much that barrels are shot out, etc? Wouldn't refurbishing what they have be cheaper? This sounds to me like an excuse to pad the old budget, and spend tax dollars unnessesarily.

Just sayin' that firearms are not a wear item that is easily worn out, with proper care.

Wyldman wrote:The question I have to ask, after reading the OP, is what difference does it make if the "old" ones they want to replace are old? If they have been cared for properly, they should continue to function without much grief. Have they been used so much that barrels are shot out, etc? Wouldn't refurbishing what they have be cheaper? This sounds to me like an excuse to pad the old budget, and spend tax dollars unnessesarily.

Just sayin' that firearms are not a wear item that is easily worn out, with proper care.

BINGO! They want to spend our tax $$$...

Hell, I would too! Cool toys!

Accurate , no flash, deadly , able to defend , attack and can be less lethal
Plus it is a Special weapon and requires special tactics

I love my all german MP5. It's the only gun in my collection I could never sell other than my granpas old wingmaster or sks.