KY HB-531 & SB-257 are BAD BILLS!!! NG

richief · Post by **richief** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:23 pm

Read them yourself. IMO this is antigun legislation
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/16RS/HB531/bill.pdf
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/16RS/SB257/bill.pdf

The NRA/ILA IS PROMOTING THIS LEGISLATION AS GOOD, AND URGING POSITIVE ACTION TO MEMBERS.

I called them yesterday without much fanfare, and just wrote them.
I will write the powers that be in Frankfort, as soon as I compile a list of contacts (time consuming)
Heres what I sent NRA.
If any of you don't like this legislation, please take the time to let them know, instead of passing it so they see what's in it like some of them do.
Take the time to oppose this.
PS
If anyone has a list of State contacts that are the powers that be (besides my two local legislatures) please post them up, I'm still fairly new here but will be buried here, and I don't want them to eff up my State.

"Yes the headline is selling Constitutional Carry. But at what trade off?
First lets understand what we have now.
Open carry is legal for anyone not prohibitted. Open carry includes on your person, or any factory installed compartment of a motor vehicle, door pocket, glove box, center console, on the seat next to you, in the trunk, etc.
Secondly, KY's CCDW is a permit for any legal to own deadly weapon of your choice. KY is a shall issue State, and the process is similiar to other shall issue states, training, FBI check, etc., and done online the statute is a decision within 30 days, which by all accounts KY State Police meets or exceeds, TY KSP.
KY also honors any firearms permit from any State, and or allows any nonresident to open carry without a permit, see open carry above.
Ky does have a few prohibitted places, for the most part government owned buildings are NOT PROHIBITED. Some are, like a courthouse with judge, etc. But some towns posted there buildings and it was struck down as unlawfull, so you can carry in taxpayer owned buildings, just beware of some restrictions. Current law in KY for posted private owned premises allows owner to ask you to leave in order to enforce their no guns policy, if you refuse you can be charged with tresspass, disturbing the peace, etc., and rightfully so. Most Kentuckians I know, myself included will go out of their way to avoid spending our hard earned money at the place of someone who takes exception to America's Bill of Rights, ammendment number two. However, if we miss the sign at the mall or have the difficult choice of attending or not attending business at a place not of our choosing, but refuse to leave our gun unattended in a car because we know the safest place from theft is on our person, we can roll the dice and maybe suffer embarassment of being asked to leave the establishment during some function of varied importance, without suffering legal penalty.

What these new bills will do is not good.
First concealed carry reciprocity will become an "Approved list of Certain States" by some beurocrat, instead of any states permit being honored.
Second the posting a sign on a premises will have the rule of law, with incrementally severe punitive damages, followed by misdemeanor crimminal charges for a third indescretion in going about your daily business while lawfully carrying.

This is anti gun legislation with a feel good wrapper of anyone can carry in KY.

In a nutshell the bad is:
outlaws gun in car while dropping kids at school, which is legal now.

outlaws carrying concealed in posted premises, with fines and arrest, is no penalty now.

Allows towns and cities to post no guns, currently state law dictates prohibitted places.

No longer recognizes every other States Ccw, and KY may lose reciprocity with other states because ksp has to negotiate reciprocal agreements now.

NRA is supporting this as positive, write or call your reps

Post by **PDM** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:29 pm

This is the same issue I have with national reciprocity. The idea is right but the devil is in the details

Post by **Tyler** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:51 pm

I agree, this sounds great at first glance, but would leave with issues similar to Texas.

richief · Post by **richief** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:05 pm

I just wrote my two Representatives.

This a link to find your reps, if so inclined. I hope many here will be.
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Find%20Your%20Leg ... lator.html

Post by **Frailer** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 3:30 pm

You're going to have to help me here.

The first link doesn't take me to the bill in question; instead, it takes me to legislation regarding planned communities. The summaries of the house bill I found online didn't constain the restrictions you describe.

I did read the senate bill in its entirety, and found nothing that led me to believe signs prohibiting weapons would carry the force of law.

I also couldn't find the "list of states" reciprocity proposal you describe. Furthermore, if no permit is required for concealed carry, wouldn't reciprocity become moot?

Can you give more specific citations?

richief · Post by **richief** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:41 pm

I fixed the link Frailer, thanks for catching that, I don't know what I did first time, housing lol.
Both bills have this wording below

(6) A person who carries a firearm or other deadly weapon in violation of this section, if the premises are posted in accordance with administrative regulations promulgated by the Attorney General under subsection (3) of this section, commits a noncriminal violation with a penalty payable to the clerk of the District Court of fifty dollars ($50) for the first offense and one hundred dollars ($100)
for the second offense. A third or subsequent offense is a Class B misdemeanor.

Further down the current law is lined out/crossed out, and substitute language regarding enumerated states that have agreement with KY, instead of all states. See below excerpt. The first part is lined out but doesnt show here in a copy paste, I put it in bold.
The proposed language is next paragraph. ( reciprocal agreement) and politicizes reciprocity.

17)[(20)
(b)] (a)
(a) A person who is not a resident of Kentucky and who has a valid license issued by another state of the United States to carry a concealed deadly weapon in that state may, subject to provisions of Kentucky law, carry a concealed deadly weapon in Kentucky, and his or her license shall be considered as valid in Kentucky.

If a person with a valid license to carry a concealed deadly weapon issued from another state that has entered into a reciprocity agreement with the Department of Kentucky State Police becomes a resident of Kentucky, the license issued by the other state shall be considered as valid for the first one hundred twenty (120) days of the person's residence in Kentucky, if within sixty (60) days of moving to Kentucky, the person completes and delivers to the Department of Kentucky State Police a form promulgated by the department[ of Kentucky State Police] which shall include:

richief · Post by **richief** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:05 pm

Frailer wrote:
Furthermore, if no permit is required for concealed carry, wouldn't reciprocity become moot?

Can you give more specific citations?

The ccdw permitting stays in place. This is a good thing. Current law recognizes any States permit.
Because of that these states (see map below from https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/travel/) recognize a KY CCDW.
The Bills proposed would CREATE a list depending on whether some beauracrat enters into an agreement with that state or not.
The map you see below blue is legal now, the map may change colors if this becomes law, if you never leave KY. You may not care, but Any thing that mayloose current liberties I am against.

Post by **Frailer** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:13 pm

richief wrote:I fixed the link Frailer, thanks for catching that, I don't know what I did first time, housing lol.
Both bills have this wording below

(6) A person who carries a firearm or other deadly weapon in violation of this section, if the premises are posted in accordance with administrative regulations promulgated by the Attorney General under subsection (3) of this section, commits a noncriminal violation with a penalty payable to the clerk of the District Court of fifty dollars ($50) for the first offense and one hundred dollars ($100)
for the second offense. A third or subsequent offense is a Class B misdemeanor.

If you go to the top of this section you'll see this applies only to places that are posted *and* are a sheriff's office, courtroom, jail, etc. (all places already prohibited). The only thing that changes is that it requires these prohibited places to be clearly posted.

Further down the current law is lined out/crossed out, and substitute language regarding enumerated states that have agreement with KY, instead of all states. See below excerpt. The first part is lined out but doesnt show here in a copy paste, I put it in bold.
The proposed language is next paragraph. ( reciprocal agreement) and politicizes reciprocity.

17)[(20)
(b)] (a)
(a) A person who is not a resident of Kentucky and who has a valid license issued by another state of the United States to carry a concealed deadly weapon in that state may, subject to provisions of Kentucky law, carry a concealed deadly weapon in Kentucky, and his or her license shall be considered as valid in Kentucky.

If a person with a valid license to carry a concealed deadly weapon issued from another state that has entered into a reciprocity agreement with the Department of Kentucky State Police becomes a resident of Kentucky, the license issued by the other state shall be considered as valid for the first one hundred twenty (120) days of the person's residence in Kentucky, if within sixty (60) days of moving to Kentucky, the person completes and delivers to the Department of Kentucky State Police a form promulgated by the department[ of Kentucky State Police] which shall include:

The lined out portion is eliminated because no permit of any kind would be required to carry.

The only question is why someone who moves to Kentucky would have to have a permit "recognized" by Kentucky for that permit to be considered valid for conversion to a Kentucky permit, but to be honest the net effect of this is nil.

I honestly don't see how any of this could be considered "anti-gun."

richief · Post by **richief** » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:17 pm

Your incorrect frailer, you need to read it again. Thats all I have the energy for, for now.
Businesses can post their property and you can be fined and or arrested, we may loose the ability to travel to some states while armed.
outlaws gun in car while dropping kids at school, which is legal now.
Allows towns and cities to post no guns, currently state law dictates prohibitted places.
No longer recognizes every other States Ccw, and KY may lose reciprocity with other states because ksp has to negotiate reciprocal agreements now.

richief · Post by **richief** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:28 am

The more I read this the worse it gets.
Current law I can drop my kids off at school while armed, as long as the gun never leaves the car I am legal.

This new bill would make this activity a felony punishable by 5 yrs jail and 10,000 fine.
I would have to leaves my kids at the street and them walk the rest of the way in any weather.

richief · Post by **richief** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:02 am

This bill also allows any town or city to make any taxpayer building a gun free zone by posting it.
Talk about inconsistancies from town to town.
This is a myriad of minefields.

richief · Post by **richief** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:32 am

KY HB 531 ia bad Bill for KY!
In a nutshell the bad is:
outlaws gun in car while dropping kids at school, which is legal now.
outlaws carrying concealed in posted premises, with fines and arrest, is no penalty now.
Allows towns and cities to post no guns, currently state law dictates prohibitted places.
No longer recognizes every other States Ccw, and KY may lose reciprocity with other states because ksp has to negotiate reciprocal agreements now.

NRA is supporting this as positive, write or call your reps

Post by **Toddstang** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:44 am

Is there a NRA link?

richief · Post by **richief** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:37 pm

To contact NRA-ILA call 800-392-8683. Or https://www.nraila.org/contact-nra-ila/

Find your rep here: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Find%20Your%20Leg ... lator.html

2016 House Standing Committee on Judiciary Members

here is page with these members hyperlinks, to make it easier. I know it's a pain but if not us, who?
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Committee/standing/Jud(H" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)/members.htm
Link is broken at end, gonna have to copy n paste

schlarmanm1 · Post by **schlarmanm1** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:31 pm

After reading the entire bill I don't see anything about changing the law on carrying into a business. It talks about the places prohibited and the signs that have to be posted but these are places already prohibited.

I'm with frailer and fail to see what you're describing.

richief · Post by **richief** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:33 am

schlarmanm1 wrote:After reading the entire bill I don't see anything about changing the law on carrying into a business. It talks about the places prohibited and the signs that have to be posted but these are places already prohibited.

I'm with frailer and fail to see what you're describing.

Well the bill was rewritten, and the language is better, clearer, and supposed to be heard tommorrow.
Contact your legislators in support of commitee substitute sb257.
Legislative in-box link: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/messages/mailform.aspx

Post by **jackalo626** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:56 pm

richief wrote:
schlarmanm1 wrote:After reading the entire bill I don't see anything about changing the law on carrying into a business. It talks about the places prohibited and the signs that have to be posted but these are places already prohibited.

I'm with frailer and fail to see what you're describing.
Well the bill was rewritten, and the language is better, clearer, and supposed to be heard tommorrow.
Contact your legislators in support of commitee substitute sb257.
Legislative in-box link: http://www.lrc.ky.gov/messages/mailform.aspx

I wonder how many already have written complaining about the bill.

richief · Post by **richief** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:46 pm

Enough that they rewrote it with important technical changes. Per NRA.

Post by **Frailer** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:29 pm

Where are the updated changes? Is there a link?

Post by **RecoilSensitive** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:34 pm

Where does it say vehicle is no longer sacred. Didn't see that

Post by **WLJ** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:37 pm

richief · Post by **richief** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:02 am

Bill is dead for this yr, senate rewrote but for lack of time house didn't. Will be ready next session.

richief · Post by **richief** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:08 am

RecoilSensitive wrote:Where does it say vehicle is no longer sacred. Didn't see that

They scratched out current language that spells out gun in car on school property is ok. Rewrite leaves that language as it was.
Rewrite does not have force of law fines, or misdemeanor arrest.
Rewrite only deletes concealed carry without permit as being illegal, and doesn,t touch anything else.

Kentucky Armory Club